New rules (I hope these don't seem too harsh)

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

I do not have access to the books and I am certainly not driving 1 1/2 hours to use someone else's book. Nor can I afford to buy all the books. I like having the hard copy of the book, personally. But, the prices for the books are stupid. So this limits me greatly. I don't mean to be a jerk but if thats how it is I might not play d20 with you guys. It seems rather silly to limit the few people you play with when the rest of the world is stealing the books anyway. Thats just my 2 cents...

You have the right to feel and act as you wish. Please let me know if what I have added makes you feel any differently, so I know what to plan for.

[palandar]

I didn't realize you would aloow it that way. I took it as if you don't have the book or access to the book while making your character then you can't use it. I know I came off harsh but it was late. I didn't mean it that way. So what I am saying is Yes, what you said will change my mind.

I just don't have the money to buy all the books. Sad as that is.

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

I didn't realize you would aloow it that way. I took it as if you don't have the book or access to the book while making your character then you can't use it. I know I came off harsh but it was late. I didn't mean it that way. So what I am saying is Yes, what you said will change my mind.

I just don't have the money to buy all the books. Sad as that is.

That was how I originally intended it, but if it's going to cause people to not play, then I won't enforce my will on it. Down the road that may change, but it's good for now.

[cw]

I am ready, willing, and able to provide photocopies from the books I own, within reason. (for example, three pages from the Complete Adventurer detailing the Ninja Class) So let me know what I can do.

I have the abiltiy to fax photocopies or email them as .pdfs. (We have one of those massive color copier/scanner/printer/spaceship/fax machines here at work.)

Of primary interest, I suppose, would be the "Complete" books, and I have all four.

Let it be known that I do not like piracy. (I do not hold that against people, though, obviously... piracy just makes me uncomfortable, so I try to stay away from it, myself.) I am OK, however, with the whole "try it before you buy it" mentality. For example, I read the D20 Modern book as a .pdf from Adam, liked it, and bought it.

So, my justification for this thing with me making photocopies is: "I am using technology to allow friends to borrow my books when they live too far away to enable actual, physical borrowing." Would that hold up in court? Not likely. But that's a risk I'm willing to take.

[The Dungeon Master]

CW said:

I am ready, willing, and able to provide photocopies from the books I own, within reason. (for example, three pages from the Complete Adventurer detailing the Ninja Class) So let me know what I can do.

I have the abiltiy to fax photocopies or email them as .pdfs. (We have one of those massive color copier/scanner/printer/spaceship/fax machines here at work.)

Of primary interest, I suppose, would be the "Complete" books, and I have all four.

Let it be known that I do not like piracy. (I do not hold that against people, though, obviously... piracy just makes me uncomfortable, so I try to stay away from it, myself.) I am OK, however, with the whole "try it before you buy it" mentality. For example, I read the D20 Modern book as a .pdf from Adam, liked it, and bought it.

So, my justification for this thing with me making photocopies is: "I am using technology to allow friends to borrow my books when they live too far away to enable actual, physical borrowing." Would that hold up in court? Not likely. But that's a risk I'm willing to take.

I have no problem with this. And as evidenced by my accord with Adam, I have nothing against trying before buying. Using without buying is the practice I will now stop, and hope to curtail in the game also. It was my policy in the past, and I fell from grace, as it were. Now that the very business I'm planning to get into is undermined by such activity, I have had an admittedly selfish change of heart, but not for the almighty dollar, as some may think. It comes down to this. i plan on making a place where people can come to play all sorts of games, including running their own, for no charge or pressure whatsoever. This is a model discouraged by most stores, in favor of more space for product. If the store fails, the space is not available. It's the reason I forego a discount at Scholars or Amazon.com and give my business to Battlegrounds. No discount, but I don't want Derek's store to go away.

[palandar]

If I like a book I'll buy it. Liking a single class or a specific weapon is not worth $30. Thats how I see it. If they lowered their price on books or cut the frill out and made cheaper copies available I'd buy them. I appriciate the work they do but I don't want to buy the art nor the hard binding. Soft cover, black and white with no pictures would suit me fine. I'm poor and wizards is raping the populace. Not really.....I don't know. I just don't think peple should have to sink hundreds of dollars to enjoy something.

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

If I like a book I'll buy it. Liking a single class or a specific weapon is not worth $30. Thats how I see it. If they lowered their price on books or cut the frill out and made cheaper copies available I'd buy them. I appriciate the work they do but I don't want to buy the art nor the hard binding. Soft cover, black and white with no pictures would suit me fine. I'm poor and wizards is raping the populace. Not really.....I don't know. I just don't think peple should have to sink hundreds of dollars to enjoy something.

Neither do I. But one could argue it's still enjoyable without all the extra books. My take on it is, if I want to use something out of it, I'm going to buy the book. If the use doesn't justify the cost, I won't use it.

[palandar]

Basically, I don't care either way for piracy. I see that it hurts small businesses but I also see that the books are somewhat over priced. Now, I would much rather have the book in my hands to use. It is so much easier. PDF's in general, aggrivate me. They are annoying to read and unless they have anchors it is annoying to find things. The ONLY reason I use them is because I can't afford the other books. I would buy them if I could afford them, I just can't. I'm sorry to have been brash, it is just how it is.

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

Basically, I don't care either way for piracy. I see that it hurts small businesses but I also see that the books are somewhat over priced. Now, I would much rather have the book in my hands to use. It is so much easier. PDF's in general, aggrivate me. They are annoying to read and unless they have anchors it is annoying to find things. The ONLY reason I use them is because I can't afford the other books. I would buy them if I could afford them, I just can't. I'm sorry to have been brash, it is just how it is.

No need to apologize. I was just explaining my position. I will not post further on this as we will not sway each other's opinions, and that is fine. I have stated how it stands with the game, and that that is subject to possible change in the future, but for now there is a compromise on the table.

[Admin Account]

Wow... don't go online for a couple days and wam! Hehe

As I am an obvious "pirate" of many different things, I'd just like to quickly say the following:

1. Piracy and its effect are widly overexagerated by almost everyone.
2. I don't know of a single product of any kind that has ever failed due to piracy, and I challenge you to show me solid evidence of it.
3. In the area of rpg books it is hardly widspread, take it from someone involved in it.
4. Both legitimate software companies and RPG book companies have on the record stated that they don't mind the piracy because it exposes their lesser known products to more people. (Symantec and Sovereign Stone are two such examples)
5. The bands that seem to dog the most about sales drops are the same bands that have been found to be lacking in quality lately. Sales records are still being challeneged, just less crap is being bought. (The same could be said for RPG companies that keep spewing out new books with re-hashed materials and then they wonder why they don't sell as well).
6. I have ALWAYS purchased everything I pirated and continued to use. (books, music, & software) All the people I know personaly who are involved in piracy at a level above the peon with Kazaa do the same as I do.

I consider myself a bit knowledgeable on this subject due to my years of direct exposure to the high levels of piracy groups, so I felt I wanted to say these things in an attempt to set the record a little straiter.

Piracy will always exist, only the low level peon users will ever be affected by the laws against it (like gun control for example).

All that being said, I support Chris 100% in his stand. It is his right to have the opinion and inflict it on his game. I will continue to "preview" (for lack of a better word) things and buy what is really worth the money they want for it. However I will not use anything unless soemone owns a legitimate copy out of respect to Chris' wishes.

Nuff said. As to the harshness of the module. Bring it on! I have a bag of dice and I am not affraid to use them. It's not like we are paying Cthulhu people

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

Nuff said. As to the harshness of the module. Bring it on! I have a bag of dice and I am not affraid to use them. It's not like we are paying Cthulhu people

ja, ja, not playing Cthulu. Verrry amusing <erase - erase><scribble furiously>

There seems to be a dark writhing cloud over the Temple. Everybody make a sanity check.

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

All that being said, I support Chris 100% in his stand. It is his right to have the opinion and inflict it on his game. I will continue to "preview" (for lack of a better word) things and buy what is really worth the money they want for it. However I will not use anything unless soemone owns a legitimate copy out of respect to Chris' wishes.

"Thank you for your support" (Bartles & James - I'm pretty sure they were drunken politicians)

[palandar]

Natural 1..

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

Natural 1..

You ARE Cthulu

[palandar]

*Modified by admin for ease of page view*

Noooo X300+a!