New rules (I hope these don't seem too harsh)

[The Dungeon Master]

Going forward I'd like to try and follow these rules. Unless there are extreme circumstance, please don't ask me to make exceptions, as I find myself too soft-hearted to stand up to such requests.

1. If you do not own or have access to a physical copy of a book, please do not use it. Current characters, feats, etc. will be grandfathered in and accepted. We're planning on openeing a store. To continue to support and participate intellectual theft of property seems hypocritical. If you do have access to a book and wish to use it, you must provide me with a photocopy of the pertinent pages you wish to use (as far in advance as possible)

2. Have your character ready before the game. If things are so busy that you can't create it and get it to me at least 3 days before we play, then please back out of the game. It's not fair to everyone to hold things up while a character is created at the table, unless those are part of the plans for the day. It will also minimize me stopping action to familiarize myself with some aspect of the character.

3. Back-up characters are essential. If there is a death, it would be unfortunate to end the gaming just because there aren't enough party members to proceed. Please create back-ups per the current game information posted on the website (as far as level, wealth, etc.)

[Admin Account]

*The following should be taken as mature and even toned*

You do realize rule 1 isn't going to do anything but limit the players options right?

As it stands now wotc puts out more fluff crap for increased costs at a greater rate each year. Most of there books are coming up equal to a CD with 1 good song.

Even worse is the fact that they continue to outdate previously bought material with newer material (splat books 3.0 - 3.5).

The good books end up being bought, the bad ones never will. This is why most of us bought the eberron books after we had a chance to try it via pdf. The same thing happened in Urban Arcana. If I hadn't had a chance to try it ala pdf, I never would have gotten the real versions, nor would the players have.

Your motivation is to get players to spend more money on more books, but the end result will just be less exposure to new material and less sales due to unsure uses of the new books. What's next, no one is allowd to look at someone elses books either?

I understand where you are coming from, and I understand what you are trying to do. As a whole it makes sense, and I can relate. In the end though it all falls apart. This won't affect me either way, but I figured I'd offer up my 3 cents.

[Admin Account]

Please note I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to offer a point of view.

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

*The following should be taken as mature and even toned*

You do realize rule 1 isn't going to do anything but limit the players options right?

As it stands now wotc puts out more fluff crap for increased costs at a greater rate each year. Most of there books are coming up equal to a CD with 1 good song.

Even worse is the fact that they continue to outdate previously bought material with newer material (splat books 3.0 - 3.5).

The good books end up being bought, the bad ones never will. This is why most of us bought the eberron books after we had a chance to try it via pdf. The same thing happened in Urban Arcana. If I hadn't had a chance to try it ala pdf, I never would have gotten the real versions, nor would the players have.

Your motivation is to get players to spend more money on more books, but the end result will just be less exposure to new material and less sales due to unsure uses of the new books. What's next, no one is allowd to look at someone elses books either?

I understand where you are coming from, and I understand what you are trying to do. As a whole it makes sense, and I can relate. In the end though it all falls apart. This won't affect me either way, but I figured I'd offer up my 3 cents.

You have made a mistake in assuming my motivation. I do not care whether people buy books at this moment, as I do not yet have a store. I woudl much prefer people wait, actually. I just will no longer justify the practice. And no, there will never be a rule about not sharing books. And things only fall apart when the following happens. Download books instead of buying them (for whatever reason, or in whatever quantities.) Sales drop. Company decides to no longer make new products. Game dies.

[Admin Account]

rexartur said:

And things only fall apart when the following happens. Download books instead of buying them (for whatever reason, or in whatever quantities.) Sales drop. Company decides to no longer make new products. Game dies.

That is certainly possible. However pdf's do indeed expose people to things they never would have seen or tried. In turn making it so people may buy a book that they would not have if they had not had a chance to try it first. If I hadn't tried UA via pdf's first, I never would have bought the real books. Don't forget why we all play Eberron now. If I hadn't provided you the pdf, we all may not have bought the books.

I have a great deal of music CD's I never would have bought if I had not had a chance to hear it first.

You seem to see PDF's as all bad, I see them as hacing some good.

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

That is certainly possible. However pdf's do indeed expose people to things they never would have seen or tried. In turn making it so people may buy a book that they would not have if they had not had a chance to try it first. If I hadn't tried UA via pdf's first, I never would have bought the real books. Don't forget why we all play Eberron now. If I hadn't provided you the pdf, we all may not have bought the books.

I have a great deal of music CD's I never would have bought if I had not had a chance to hear it first.

You seem to see PDF's as all bad, I see them as hacing some good.

I never said pdf's were bad. I think the process of pirating is bad. You may be an exception but 99% of the people who download, will not then go buy the product. In the end, if it all goes away, it won't matter who did what or for what reasons.

[Admin Account]

rexartur said:

I never said pdf's were bad. I think the process of pirating is bad. You may be an exception but 99% of the people who download, will not then go buy the product. In the end, if it all goes away, it won't matter who did what or for what reasons.

I would have to disagree with the 99% thing. In fact I know a lot of people that do what i do with CDs (listen to mp3, buy if they like). I don't think it a stretch that people might do the same with pdf's. In fact the creators of the Dragonlance setting (D20) released pdfs to the IRC channels as a way to get exposure to the general populace in the past.

Piracy will always exist, and there is hardly anything that can be done to stop it. However I feal that if a product of any type has storng enough merit, it will always sell enough to be profitable. The good music still sells in droves, only the crap stuff fails to sell as well now due to the preview mp3 offers.

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

I would have to disagree with the 99% thing. In fact I know a lot of people that do what i do with CDs (listen to mp3, buy if they like). I don't think it a stretch that people might do the same with pdf's. In fact the creators of the Dragonlance setting (D20) released pdfs to the IRC channels as a way to get exposure to the general populace in the past.

Piracy will always exist, and there is hardly anything that can be done to stop it. However I feal that if a product of any type has storng enough merit, it will always sell enough to be profitable. The good music still sells in droves, only the crap stuff fails to sell as well now due to the preview mp3 offers.

OK, I defintely made the 99% up, that's just my impression. The bottom line is we're actually saying the same thing. If it's good enough to use, you buy it. All I'm saying is if you want to use it, you or somebody in the group has to have it and have access to it.

[Admin Account]

Essentially we are

And considering how much you and Chris buy stuff, I don't see to many books being not available

[The Dungeon Master]

Adam said:

Essentially we are

And considering how much you and Chris buy stuff, I don't see to many books being not available

Building my store 1 book at a time

[palandar]

I do not have access to the books and I am certainly not driving 1 1/2 hours to use someone else's book. Nor can I afford to buy all the books. I like having the hard copy of the book, personally. But, the prices for the books are stupid. So this limits me greatly. I don't mean to be a jerk but if thats how it is I might not play d20 with you guys. It seems rather silly to limit the few people you play with when the rest of the world is stealing the books anyway. Thats just my 2 cents...

[palandar]

I fully agree with #2.

As far as #3 goes I think some of the modules need to be scaled. That water (not a trap) thing really put alot of people off. There was absolutely no indication of what was behind the door. Sara even got a high roll on her search check, she should have got something. Maybe a seam stopping the water from leaking or maybe she banged on the door, the sound would be different if there was water behind it. I don't know...I'm tired.

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

I do not have access to the books and I am certainly not driving 1 1/2 hours to use someone else's book. Nor can I afford to buy all the books. I like having the hard copy of the book, personally. But, the prices for the books are stupid. So this limits me greatly. I don't mean to be a jerk but if thats how it is I might not play d20 with you guys. It seems rather silly to limit the few people you play with when the rest of the world is stealing the books anyway. Thats just my 2 cents...

For me it's about making decisions I feel are right for me, regardless of what the rest of the world is doing. This is the right decision for me. You know people with books and are in contact with them and there are other means than driving to them to be able to get the info. Also the core stuff is all SRD and available online.

[The Dungeon Master]

Palandar said:

I fully agree with #2.

As far as #3 goes I think some of the modules need to be scaled. That water (not a trap) thing really put alot of people off. There was absolutely no indication of what was behind the door. Sara even got a high roll on her search check, she should have got something. Maybe a seam stopping the water from leaking or maybe she banged on the door, the sound would be different if there was water behind it. I don't know...I'm tired.

It was a perfectly sealed giant stone door. No thumping would have revealed anything other than the sound of a giant stone door being thumped. There were a couple of other options, but mostly obscure. Hence my revision of how things went down.

[The Dungeon Master]

Allow me to re-state/ clarify my position. My intent is not to disgruntle and elminate players. People will do as they wish. I will no longer be using pdf's as a sole source of information. Therefore if you want to use something from a book I don't have, I am requiring a photocopy or print-out of that game material, or to be able to guarantee access to the book at the table. Let's not think I'm naive or being a cop. I won't be checking watermarks or paper quality to see if a page is photocopied or printed (in fact, you can purchase WotC books as pdf's (not a good way to go as they have severe limitations and are priced the same as hardbound). What you do and how you do it is your business. I have stated what I will be doing, and I don't think it an unreasonable position. So, to recap. Want to use a non-core race, class, feat, weapon? Ask me if I have the book. If I do not, you must provide me with the reproduced pages (no this is not so I can build the book - I have the pdf's - I just don't wish to use them anymore). How you get those pages is up to you. You know what I would prefer, and that is a dcision I am making for myself. I could enforce it for everyone, but am backing off on that, at least for now. As Adam pointed out, everyone has friends on this very message board that have copies of most of the books. I never said you had to own the book for yourself, just have access to it.
The following will not occurr. "I'm playing this race and class. I don't have the book. I don't have the sheets" or "I have written it down." This leaves me with nothing to verify. Let's face it, we all read things a little bit differently and I like to form my own conclusions based on what I read. As the guy running the game, I reserve the right to do so.
So we have a real-world mechaninc and an ideal-based reason for my decision. Please don't try and justify to me why you think it's ok to do otherwise, and I won't bore you with the reasons I think it is not.
I do want us to all play together. I have a lot of fun and hope everyone else does as well. But I have to do and decide what I think is right. I hope I have stated my position in such a way that you can see compromise in it.